Mount Jackson Farmers' Market Blog

More on Signs...

10/4/2011

It was brought to our attention that we have made more enemies than friends with our letter to the Town Council pointing out other businesses who are in violation of the codes.

It was not our intent to force the Town to make other businesses conform. Rather, only to bring to the table the issue that our codes need revisited, and that we need to have codes AND enforcement that is fair to all.

One of our Facebook supporters recently wrote: "After reviewing the comprehensive plan, I have to agree ... The actions taken to prohibit the [off-premise A-frame] signs is counter to the overall goal of promoting appropriate growth and development of Mt. Jackson. I would ask the Town Council members to review the Comprehensive Plan and then examine which regulations/rules discourage/prevent Mt. Jackson from meeting the goal of being an attractive and dynamic town of which locals could be proud and tourists would seek as a to visit."

Well said!

Ultimately, amendments to the Code have the potential to benefit ALL businesses in Mount Jackson, including the long established businesses. We are confident that the Planning Commission and Town Council are doing just this.

There is a Council meeting next Tuesday, October 11 at 7:30 PM, and EVERYONE is welcome to come and express their opinion.

We really do hope that some provision can be made for "Off Premise" signage, at minimum in the Downtown Historic Core. Otherwise, the only creative solution we have come up with is to resort to costumed sign waivers... Oh my! (Can't you just see Main Street full of kids dressed in this along Main Street?!)

Perhaps our strategy for bringing the situation into the public eye is not as refined as some others', and we do apologize for having outed other businesses - then again we were told that it was other businesses who complained about us. Therefore, it's obvious that there's a problem that needs to be fixed.

Unfortunately, sometimes things get worse before they get better. We do apologize for any inconvenience the issue may have caused.

We do ask other businesses to jump on board, not to support us, but to support changes to benefit their own businesses.

29 Comments

10/5/2011 11:15:13 am

So you bought a building with poor visibility, either failed to read the code or completely ignored it, and when you are made aware of your violations, you think the entire code needs to be re-written. You weren't forced to make this purchase and the code didn't just change. I, for one, think the code is just fine and will be glad to make my opinion know to the council members and town manager.

Henry

joe

10/5/2011 11:55:29 am

Nice costume! Will Gerald be wearing that?
Can you say "PANSY"? Lol!

10/5/2011 03:58:39 pm

Wow...I am so disappointed in the fact that the two previous posters had to revert to high school mentality to voice an opinion on this blog.
It is my understanding that the proprietors are simply asking for fairness. No the code did NOT change therefore ALL businesses to comply or it needs to be changed to accomodate said businesses in the interest of advertising in such a way that it promotes positive growth and development. So if h thinks the code is fine as is then I would certainly encourage him to make his opinion known to the council members and town manager. I also hope that he would have the integrity to be willing to uphold that conviction for all of the business in violation of the code in the town of Mt. Jackson.

henry

10/5/2011 11:32:41 pm

The proprietors are looking for fairness? Had they kept their signs on their own property, there wouldn't have been any problem. But by placing them on town property they put themselves in this situation and now they want to drag other businesses into this. While these signs may be zoning violations and need to be addressed, when did Gerald become the zoning police? By reacting the way he did, he'd better make sure to follow the code EXACTLY as written since they will be watching him.

Paul

10/5/2011 11:54:11 pm

OR the town could just change the code so that it promotes growth for all the businesses in town and can be enforced across the board instead of selectively.

10/6/2011 12:09:19 am

That is all well and good. I still feel it is a shame that new and old businesses alike are not able to put up portable (not permanent) signs on a sidewalk in the interest of attracting customers. The community should be working together to address these issues not attacking one another. It saddens me that adults would be so silly. I would think it would be in everyones best interest to forge a relationship that is supportive and encouraging of one another and is helpful in making everyones business ventures in the town of Mt. Jackson successful.

Joyce Shirley

10/6/2011 12:16:01 am

Debate is good when done with a well thought out assessment of the situation. If other signs and zoning violations are addressed also, then the market should adher to what is decided.I personally find none of the signs or pendants offensive;however in fairness I can see the point. Nor do I innocently believe that the town is going to take down the other signs. So looking at the code is called for at this time.
The bigger picture to me is that growth within the town, in an older building that could have gone to ruin, is not a bad thing. Any additional business in town that is family oriented and shows respect for the town,only reflects on the value of the town. Yes, the market is off of the beaten path, unless you are a tourist walking through our beautiful old cemetary and old church. Let us look at ways to share the rich history of our town with others and move forward, not stay mired in who is right or wrong. We will all benefit.

joe

10/6/2011 12:16:47 am

Like we need more signs in town? If off premise signs are allowed, there will be signs everywhere. Is this farmers market, if that's what you want to call it, really that great to warrant this debate? The time I was there, I was very disappointed and honestly doubt it will be here long enough for the ink to dry if the code is changed

Gerald

10/6/2011 12:51:55 am

I want to thank everyone for their comments, and hope they keep coming. It is helpful to gain everyone's perspective.

For the sake of those on the blog, I do need to inform everyone that Joe and Henry are one in the same person (in case you didn't already know that. An IP address is traceable, even from a mobile device...)

We are not censoring posts, though we may if it continues to be inflammatory rather than constructive. Also, please be aware that this project is not "Gerald's alone." I have a wife and son who are involved and taking the comments to heart.

Cyndy

10/6/2011 12:52:36 am

Wow! What a lot of grief over a new business trying to make a go of it in a town that should want to attract more visitors.

A couple of weeks ago, I was looking for the Farmers' Market but had no idea where it was. Although I pass through Mt. Jackson a lot to go to soccer games, etc., it is not a town that I know a lot about - I certainly do not know all of the street names. I was so relieved when I saw the chalk board sign that pointed me in the right direction.

One of the posters on this blog notes that the Farmers' Market is "not that great" - it is not even fully open yet! There are a lot of hoops to jump through, especially when the owners are trying to do the right thing by the historic property that the Market occupies.

I would love to see the Farmers' Market succeed - the plan is to offer a venue for one-stop-shopping for local produce and other products. Who would not want to support our local farmers and other producers? And, I understand there are plans to expand the upstairs to accommodate artists and craftspeople as well.

I am not a resident of Mt. Jackson but I hope that the Town has the opportunity to discuss the signage issue as it relates to all businesses - and that the Council reaches a conclusion that benefits all and continues to attract new businesses and more visitors.

Melanie Payne

10/6/2011 02:06:09 am

I agree!! So much grief! Why does anyone in the town not want a new business to make it in the town. Do they want the town to die. Do they not relives that more in the town will attract more people? This is a farmers market, not a nite club! We all should be supporting are local farmers and trying to keep our money in Shenandoah county. Would it help everyone? Even the bigger stores in the area. I am so sorry for the people trying to get this up and going. Belive me there are people out there that hope this is just a funny store for you i about five years. Thank you for puttig up with this and we support you.

Tara Forsburg

10/6/2011 08:02:16 am

Although there are bigger plans for the eventual opening of the inside of the building, the Town recently changed the codes to include Farmers’ Markets. Beginning next spring, we will have to pay the Town for a special use permit to hold an open air outdoor market on the property that we own. There were no existing codes pertaining to the operation of a farmers’ market before ours existed, so it seems reasonable that there are some gray areas that need to be worked out. It is not my desire that anyone else should have to change their current signage… only that the codes either be updated or enforced. Consider, too, that there was another recent incident where lack of "rules" enforcement presented a hurdle to one of our business interests and we were told by the Town Manager that “enforcing the ordinance would upset too many people”. So it seems to me that it is time to reevaluate the existing codes and find a solution that is feasible to businesses and citizens alike. Codes that make sense in this current economic climate and that will facilitate the Town’s growth and prosperity -- codes that can be unilaterally enforced (without “upsetting too many people”).
What is your objection to ours (and others?) signs being up during the 10 hours a week we are in operation during the current outdoor market season?

Gerald

10/6/2011 11:57:02 am

Joe, Well, this is awkward - I deleted your comment by mistake. You asked whether it is true that we were asked to move the signs from the pedestrian access and that we refused.

Thank you for asking. The short and direct answer is that we were never asked to move the signs, and therefore did not refuse. The first we heard of our violation was last Thursday and we have not put the signs in place since (we were only putting them out on Wednesdays and Saturdays.)

The longer answer: We first put the sign nearest the Veterans' memorial on the sidewalk because we wanted to be respectful of the memorial and also did not want to destroy the plantings. Several weeks ago, I happened to notice a town official pick up the sign closest to the Memorial and move it into the planting area. We picked up on the cue and then found what we though was an even better place in a grassy area behind the memorial, thinking that the sign would be better placed away from the view of the memorial itself.

There was no dialog.

When we were told of our violation last Thursday, and only that there were complaints.

We have abode by the law since.

Gerald

10/6/2011 12:05:12 pm

In response to the first comment - we really don't think that the entire code needs to be re-written. We are talking about one tiny section of the entire code, specifically the one about signs in the B-1 zone. (Section 66-335)

Don't know if this will work, but here's the link anyway:
http://library.municode.com/index.aspx?clientID=12488&stateID=46&statename=Virginia

(Click on "Part II - Codes" on the left, then "Section 66 - Zoning" on the right, then "Article XI - Supplementary Regulations", then section "66-335 - Signs".)

joe

10/6/2011 12:37:26 pm

Interesting. It is my understanding that you were given several warnings by town officials which were ignored.

Gerald

10/6/2011 12:45:00 pm

Sorry Joe. simply not true. love a good rumor though.

joe

10/6/2011 12:56:10 pm

Don't we all.
Aren't you trying to get a petition signed by your fellow business owners? How's that going?
Sorry for all the questions, just trying to get my facts straight

Martin

10/6/2011 03:58:58 pm

LOL! Pansy? I find the venomous darts from some peoples comments above, blatantly gives insight into their lack of education and emotional intelligence by their responses. For the Farmers market to be in attacked in a such a way and Gerald as well, just shows some people are scared of new things, when people act in such a way it shows their ignorance or latent personal interests are being challenged. Not going to get much further into that, because only an idiot argues with idiots. On a lighter note, if the town has codes and businesses do not follow the codes then they are breaking a town law. Justice should have equal weights, it is imperative. But all cases should be looked at individually for fairness because some laws that are deemed necessary and fair are completely ridiculous in other cases (as this appears for the farmers market so far off the beat and not on main street, which is why the town probably made the code in the first place, for main street where people walk). It would be prudent for the businesses to work together on issues such as this instead of fighting and using the town council fo redress, or the businesses run the risk of the town council becoming too powerful through legislation and hurting all business.

Martin

10/6/2011 04:07:54 pm

A "look" at the code to discuss a Revision of the code sounds like the most intelligent choice to make. Being in the military and leading men I have found as a leader that at least looking at a problem when people complain quells the arguments slightly, but the men better have a problem to the solution instead of just complaining. As it appears here, there is a problem to the solution Gerald has thought out, but ineffective leadership refuses to at least consider it. At least from an outsiders point of view who is nowhere near Virginia at this point in time.

karey link

10/6/2011 09:44:31 pm

I have lived in Mt Jackson my entire life and become more disappointed in it each year. I own a home in town that is a registered historical site, so when I see a building that is so rich in history being used and preserved it makes me very happy. The problem is, those that run our town know the least about how our little town developed. Where it all started. We lose our rich history day by day. As for the town codes; many of them are just plain ridiculous and need to be updated. I remember driving by and seeing your sign setting out and thinking "wow...a new business, that is certainly something our town NEEDS". I may just be at that upcoming council meeting as well as others in the future. GOD bless you and I hope you are able to get the word out about your business and it thrives for many many years to come!

Gerald

10/6/2011 11:33:32 pm

We have spoken with a few other businesses, and would very much like to know what code changes would best benefit their businesses. In the meantime, a petition is a great idea.

Martin

10/7/2011 01:51:25 am

slight typo above, I meant the men better have a Solution to the problems they ar complaining about. Overseas operational tempo and lack of sleep is exhausting. Good Luck with the Farmers Market, it looks like it would be something that will bring the town closer as a community and meet community needs on a small business level!! We need more small business in our country!

virginia`

10/7/2011 03:02:04 am

@Joe
How do you know so much about private admonitions by the town?
@ Martin thank you for your service. There are latent personal business interests behind some of this, leadership afraid of the business, and also the fear of new things. Glad the founders of our town were not afraid of that.

Martin

10/7/2011 09:35:47 pm

@ Vriginia

Thank you for your comment. With that I would say it is fair to say that the underlying personal business affairs of some, are the MAIN REASON for the attacks from some on this blog, with that said I think that anyone who reads this blog now will see that the attackers have been exposed. Nothing personal, just business I suppose. Money brings out the best in some people, or the worst. Here is a simple business plan...Mt Jackson is small so instead of different business interests competing with the Farmers Market in such a negative way, they should work together to bring more people to the area. More people will mean more potential money spent. To analyze people's spending habits, a business owner with reasonable intelligence knows that when people go out to spend money, especially in a small historic town, they like to check out all the shops for the experience of different things. The context of the whole thing is that it is a small town, not a mall with multiple shops selling the same goods and services. If the town was focused on creating an "experience" then shop owners could even suggest to patrons to check out other shops as well. The experience will get the word out about the town and the experience will get people to come back because it is too easy to just buy stuff these days with a click of the mouse. The basis for the MT. Jackson experience is there, just capitalize on it by working together as a community. The town should be afraid of new business like franchises and strip malls, not Farmers Markets that contribute to the small town feeling that many people seek on weekends to get a breath of fresh air from the Wash/Balt area.

joe

10/8/2011 03:57:47 am

Should the code be rewritten to accommodate every new business that comes to town?
Yes, the town needs growth and everyone wants to support that but it shouldn't be changed just to suit one business and the business owners in the downtown area seem fine with the code the way it is. This market is a great idea but they owners need to just comply. The code is there for a reason and changing it to support 1 business is absurd. There are many things about the code that I don't agree with but we accept it and find ways to make it work.

One more thing...maybe there is more to this than you have been told. There are 2 sides to every story and you have only heard one side. This matter could have been resolved with dialog instead of the way it was handled. These violations were an issue because they were off premise and impeding pedestrian traffic. The other businesses who were called did have violations but what does that have to do with the market? By doing so, Gerald has involved others who had no desire to be involved. Since I am now involved, I have and will continue to voice my opinion.

Martin

10/8/2011 06:12:23 am

@ Joe
It sounds like the code has blanketed all business in the town, and while the businesses downtown may be fine with it what about the business that are not downtown? Your comparing apples to oranges. From what I have read just here in this blog the problem is not rewriting the WHOLE code, just a look at certain areas (zones)to be revised for matching the topography of the town the best possible way. Certain codes can work downtown that would not work effectively on the outskirts.

While the market may have had a violation, you did state that the other businesses had violations. So everyone had violations, why then would you use the Markets violation as an argument in your earlier statements to point the finger at Gerald, apparently for defamation of character.

You also stated, "Interesting. It is my understanding that you were given several warnings by town officials which were ignored."

So what; as you said other businesses had violations. If you were so concerned with showing both sides of the story you would have stated the other side, obviously it would be your side for some reason since your so interested in making unruly comments in this blog, but the fact is you did not state the other side so due to failing to bring light on that issue, and due to your previous malicious comments, I would say that whatever you have to say to instigate, would be looked at just that, malicious intent. You successfully destroyed all legitimacy in your comments.

People can see that in your first few comments and obviously you have realized that, and then took a passive aggressive stance in your last post stating, " This market is a great idea but they owners need to just comply."

Yet previous to that you stated, "Is this farmers market, if that's what you want to call it, really that great to warrant this debate? The time I was there, I was very disappointed and honestly doubt it will be here long enough for the ink to dry if the code is changed."

So it is a great idea yet you were disappointed with it when you were there and doubt it will be around long enough.

You have come here with personal intentions for some reason, and poke and instigate. A quick analysis of your comments shows that. But this obviously exposes your comments for their face value for all who reads this blog.

I find it disgusting, this blog is like Gerald hanging a sign on his store window and because you don't like it, or him, you come along and write graffiti all over it instead of acting like a mature adult and calmly voicing your Opinion at the council meeting, or sitting down with Gerald over a cup of coffee and listening to his side, him listening to your side and trying to see what it is like for the other guy. Thus, further enabling the town to find a solution to this problem, now Joe that is what Gentleman do and then you appear to be a good Citizen of the town not just a flame thrower. Calm, soft spoken but firm and legitimate to the other men of the town because you appear to have sound judgment instead of calling people childish names.

As for rewriting the code for every new business? Yes and no, it all depends on the situation. The stock market goes up and down, business comes and goes, it is fluid. It is obvious there is something to the code that is hurting the Farmers Market trying to get up and running, as a taxpayer is Gerald not entitled to express how it hurts his business? Is he not entitled to offer a plan that works with the rest of the town? Is he not entitled to the council reviewing and taking a vote? That is what a Town council is for, at least on of its jobs. To listen to the taxpayers and townspeople. That is the way America used to work. A blog for a business is to get feedback from customers and for owners to keep customers updated, not for Joe to come and scribble in it.

IT IS A SIGN DUDE, BE REASONABLE if you are capable of that. The market is a new business as well which means there is a learning curve. Nothing you have said is contributing to solving this sign issue, this is not the proper platform to voice your personal opinions of Gerald. Perhaps you can find a more intelligent way of discussing these matters in a business setting like Gentleman do. Otherwise, please move along, nothing to see here.

joe

10/8/2011 06:57:23 am

@ martin

The point here is poor judgement on geralds part by placing signs in the middle of the sidewalk and nowhere on his property! That creates a hazard for pedestrians and a liability for the town! All he had to do was work with the town and I'm sure they would have came to an agreement of where to place them but he had to act like a child and call out other businesses who have questionable violations ON THEIR OWN PROPERTY.

Then again, let's just ammend the code and when a walmart or similar want to come in we'll just make an exception and do the same for a brothel and so on.

On that note, I am done here. Time will tell all.
And Gerald, you reap what you sow.

donald

10/8/2011 07:14:49 am

@ Joe...Calm down Joe. I see your point but others have made valid points too.
As a resident and a business owner in town, I feel as if I should voice my opinion too.

Yes there are zoning issues in town. In a small town in this economy, we all must try to do whatever we can to encourage traffic in to our businesses. And yes we push the zoning envelop a bit. The town is somewhat easy going and understands the situation for us business owners. I believe, as Joe tried to point out, that Gerald wasn't picked at random. It was his sign placement that raised a red flag.
Instead of resolving his issue with the town, he chose to involve others.
I believe Gerald has burned any bridges he may have had with the business owners in town but that will sort itself out.
We all want the market to be successful, that was never the issue. The more the town has to offer, the better it will be for everyone.
I wish Gerald and his family nothing but the best.

Regards,
Don

Gerald

10/8/2011 01:42:53 pm

@Don - I sincerely appreciate your view on this. In our defense, I did in fact, try to resolve the issue, or at least attempt dialog with the town at the time we were instructed that we were in violation. After apologizing and agreeing that we would not put the signs up again, I asked if there were any suggestions that the town had as to what we could do to advertise the business on Main Street. The response was a shoulder shrug and "just don't put the signs up."

More importantly, Don, I sincerely apologize if your business was one of those that was pointed out. I am equally apologetic to all the businesses that were pointed out. The intent was definitely NOT to point at others' faults (and have removed the photos from the blog); or even to the fault of the Town for selectively enforcing codes; but rather to underscore and illustrate the need for dialog.

Please come by the market for a cup of coffee on me. It's the least we can do.

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